Branch is a much better place to talk than Twitter. Thought I'd start a conversation about the new Final Cut Pro X update. Do you use FCPX? Would you try it now? What's still missing? Too little, too late?

hmm branch eh. well ill give it a go i guess along with FCPx :-)

Hi, Jason. This is better than Twitter for a semi-intelligent conversation and it stays here so you can read it later. Did you buy FCPX when it came out?

What's branch?

I think this is a really solid update. This is what should have been the first shipping version of FCPX.

Apple is obviously adding features back in that the app has to have. While all the 10.0.6 features are great I don't think any of them are things that are revolutionary as they are all needed to get the thing back to being more like a real NLE. I'll be happy to try them out though as there is some good stuff in there this update. I'm happy to see Apple realizing some conventions are important in an NLE, mainly "dual viewers" and remembering the fucking IN OUT points are they're marked.

Drop shadow? Meh.

I agree with Scott… it puts the app closer to what it should be, but I think it's still behind in a lot of ways… ways that they're determined not to go. It's got its place, sure, but while PPro isn't the Swiss Army knife that FCP7 was, I think the foundations are there, and they seem to be more responsive. Apple's opacity prevents us from really knowing if the next update will be 'the good one'. This, coupled with their hardware problems (no Mac Pros) gives an air of uncertainty, and people with deadlines don't need that. I am sure I will use FCPX, just like I use PPro, and Avid. They're all tools, and one will be right for the job at hand.

Woeful move from apple. only when all the pros have flooded away and found other solutions do you THEN make the app what it should have been out of the gate. For many, probably myself included this is all a bit too late as all have by now found other solutions. Though dual screen and R3D have been THE two things that have kept me away so far.

They really took a page out of reds playbook. release something not ready for prime time and only improve it after the damage is done

I have no doubt that if this were the FCPX that was initially released we would all be using it happily. Most likely grumbling about certain features and such, but there wouldn't have been the shit storm that triggered the mass exodus. And there would be no such thing as "branches" :)

I dunno ... even if 10.0.6 was 10.0.0 I think there'd still be a lot of issues with it. IMHO the fundamental problem with FCPX for most types of work I do is the Magnetic timeline. I often jump around and might cut the very end of an edit first, middle second, who knows. To have to worry about those clips shifting or where they are connected to is just silly.

Scott, I just edited something that way today. Did the beginning, skipped the middle, did the end. In FCPX it would shift around when I edited the middle? I'm still using FCPX.

I depends on how you move clips around but yea, by default with the magnetic timeline if you're moving stuff around earlier in the timeline it can ripple changes all the way downstream. To be fair that can happen in other NLEs but it's much easier and potentially more destructive in FCPX.

I've thrown all my eggs into the Premiere Pro basket. As Christopher said, it's not the Swiss Army Knife of FCP7, but... anything missing can be shuttled in from After Effects or Photoshop. And all my Red Giant stuff works there. I'll go back and give FCP another go one day when I finally hear the great big collective sigh of relief from you all (that it's finally complete again) - assuming that ever happens. ;)

Ive been editing for 20 years, started on linear tape, have used everything from Avid DS to Media 100. This update makes FCPX pro. I'm not sure exactly what people are missing at this point... I went back to premiere cs6 to edit a promo just the other day after about 6 months in FCPX. It was abysmal. And I used to be just as much a fan of source and record as anyone else, but now I don't need it. In fact I FLY without it. With the new slight changes in the magnetic timeline, the tilde key trick, I don't see why anyone could complain much about it anymore. We have range export, frickin' bundles, did ya see that? Paste attributes is back, they've addressed some audio concerns, I mean I'm not sure what is left to really complain about.

I have to disagree Chris about people who still don't like FCPX missing the point. The Magnetic Timeline is still different enough that it's still a substation shift in the way one works if you come from another NLE. The tilde key trick is nice but it's not a new editing "mode" that turns off the magnetic timeline or permanently locks clips in place. For me, FCPX works very well for some types of edit, not so much for others. I wouldn't call PPro CS6 abysmal, I would call it great as I've moved a lot of what would have been FCP7 work to CS6 and it works very, very well.

Scott you're right Premiere Pro is not abysmal in and of itself. It's pretty decent software, and, were FCPX not invented, I would be using Premiere Pro happily, dynamic linking into After Effects, etc... However, having become accustomed to the workflow in FCPX, my experience quickly shifting back into Premiere WAS abysmal. Clicking tracks on and off, opening clips in a viewer first, having to import clips like logos and such that I use all the time, it just seems inane to me now. I'm not by any means saying that FCPX and her magnetic timeline are not faulty. They are. But in all, FCPX has and is saving me so much time with new workflows, It makes (for me) other solutions seem antiquated.

I guess I don't understand certain things when you say workflow as FCPX workflow is still the same. You have to (sometimes) transcode and import footage before edit begins. I don't see FCPX any faster/better at that. For basic editorial it is quite different. I personally like PPro's ability to both skim in Hover Scrub and load a clip into a viewer for more precise marking of IN OUTs. Kinda the best of both worlds to me.

Now we need to be able to see the waveform during hover scrub. That would help.

In reaction to Chris a few posts above, there are still numerous reasons FCPX is not the answer in Broadcast situations. While the 10.0.6 update has changed things quite a bit, it really just brings it closer to what it should have been in the first place.

Right now, FCPX does not integrate into large SAN situations at all. Its "always on" nature of the way it renders projects is a total killer. At any given moment, we are pulling shots from over 360-400 hours of footage brought in everyday. (On average, 6 angles of (15) 4 hour games, plus all our studio shows, and any legacy stuff we are working on.) We can also have about 50 "live" FCP projects being edited on any given day. This would just be a grinding halt for FCPX to deal with.

Magnetic timeline stills needs a way to be disabled. Like Scott says, I ALWAYS am working on different sections of an edit, that are very time specific. This requires too many workarounds to keep things from shifting, and the "P" tool is not the answer, as many people seem to like to suggest.

Thats said, the new update makes it feel quite a bit better for atually getting work done. I am currently using it as a rough scratch pad, and moving into Avid or Premiere, or even FCP7 when its time to "finish"

Art I bet another of my big FCPX issues is one you have too. No quick and easy way to make a duplicate of a timeline and keep working. I do this over and over again to keep old versions, experiment on something new, or just give myself a type of "autosave" different from how the app does an autosave. Besides the fact you have to take a lot of time to move back to the Project Library and do the actual duplication the project folders can become very large and duplication takes time. Yes if you don't include render files that helps but it's still quite kludgy.

Yeah, absolutely Scott. The project management is not designed for stuff like that, and I'm not sure how they fix it. Also, media management is actually quite confusing for an "every mans" NLE.

Think about this, I may use 4 seconds of a 5 hour game feed, and if I "manage" the media, FCPX would copy the entire 5 hour file, for one shot.

Side note, I just sent a project to resolve from FCPX, and it automatically puts the original mkIII footage in the resolve project, not the optimized pro res files I wanted. Only way to override is to manually edit the XML, or manually move the original footage out of the event folder.

so theres no way to turn off magnetic timeline? i think id like to play with it a while to see if it would truly annoying. So you can leave a gap anywhere? ie drag the back half your happy with away from everything while you play with the length of the middle?

You can leave gaps wherever you want, but the nature of the magnetic timeline is, any clips connected to media later in time than where you are editing will ripple. You have to do work arounds like, let's say, connecting music that you want to start at 30 seconds in, to frame 1, then leave 30 seconds of filler. If you leave it connected to the primary storyline at :30, any edits in the first 29 seconds affects the start point of the music. Without workarounds, there is no way to say "I know this clip starts at XX time. Leave it here, and do not let it move"

The only real practical was I've seen to "lock" clips is to place a big slug in the primary storyline and always use connected clips to connect to that. But that just doesn't seem real practical after all.

hmm sounds like its about 3 red bulls and 45 mins of coding for someone to make a patch or plugin to fix that

Apple needs to realize in editing, in addiction to clips having relationships to other clips (which is how FCPX works), there are many instances clips need to maintain a relationship with time. They should have an option to add a connected clip to the time ruler, not another piece of video.

I'm not a programmer in any way shape or form, but Jayson is right. It couldn't be all that difficult to add a "anchor" type feature that would allow for pinning down, or freezing a section of the timeline. It seems like a no brainer.

The problem with editing just to the secondary storyline is that all the shortcuts are based on the primary storyline only. Insert, overwrite, Append, etc all go to the primary storyline.

sometimes pros dont want the computer to think for us Apple. Sometimes we just want stuff to stay where we left it. We're not 5

A simple right click LOCK. Would go a long way

before anyone googles programmers and gets em coding.. what els is on the list? a more elegant way to make projects portable?

Good point on the shortcuts Art. I've only tried that with a music video style and it worked but I can see where it could make it a big pita as well. I don't think anyone could make a plugin or programming change to lock clips as that's deep in the app. Apple did go a bit that direction with the tilde ` key thing the added in 10.0.6. I guess that's a baby step.

FCPX sounds like a freakin' headache to me. Is it any good with long form edits like an 80 minute documentary?

No.

It's okay. Best thing to do is download it and try it. Warning though. If you don't like Premiere, you won't like this. Premiere is very similar to FCP7, FCPX is a bit different overall. If you're expecting it to work like FCP7, then your best option is Premiere.

Or FCP7 =)

Well that was a to the point answer! Haha!

Yeah, I guess I'll put all my eggs in the Adobe basket. Even if they won't make the razorblade tool snap to the playhead.

I guarantee you they'll do that. I saw it was mentioned on Twitter by the Adobe people. They said, "If you want the razorblade to VISUALLY snap, then send a request to Adobe."

(NOTE: it DOES snap right now, it just doesn't have visual indication of this)

All those little touches is what makes for the feel of a program. That what made Quark so good in it's day and FCP in it's day.

well within the first 5 mins if got my library of clips on a second monitor and imported 5K Epic footage, color corrected and playing in real time in the app and in 1080p via my BMD intensity card. ohh kayyy then

I don't see what the big deal about the blade snapping to the playhead is anyway. Add the blade command to the keyboard and you never have to touch the mouse again to blade something!!

I'm a mouse guy, not a key command guy. I like to think about my cuts, so I've never had to work that fast. And the snap is an important part of why Mac software feels so much better than windows software. To me, anyway. Plus I like aligning a cut with the end of a clip or cut above.

I keep saying that but people are stuck in their ways. =) Why even use the blade tool? Geez, these FCP editors... I'm kidding. But another and probably better option is to map the Add Edit command to the keyboard so it adds an edit where the playhead is (like Scott says).

Well if the blade snapping to the playhead is going to keep you away from CS6 and on FCP7 then I think you're missing out. PPro CS6 is good, getting better and Adobe seems to actually care!

This is one of the reasons that FCP7 was so great. It fit so many different editing styles. Anyone could figure out a way to make it work for them. FCP X and even Media Composer almost want you to stick to a certain way of working. Not that I've never seen an Avid editor that uses lots of mouse, or a FCPX editor that is quick with the keyboard, but the tools do lend themselves to a certain way of working. FCP X is very much headed towards a "touch" future, and Avid is so much better with the keyboard.

It won't be long before we see iPad integration with FCPX probably. Seems to be going that route. Or even FCPX on the iPad. Scary....

Premiere is still missing things, some things work weird, but its still probably the best option out there. All programs have their quirks, you have to weigh the pros/cons for the job at hand. I have even found a little place for FCPX to work for me, but its FAR away from an everyday editor, if ever.

Kenn, I understand the blade thing, but your letting a minor thing get in the way of a much better experience than your gonna get anywhere else right now. (plus, I can emphasize enough the need to learn to be a keyboard editor. You will triple your editing speed. Everytime you use a mouse to do something, there is most likely a quicker way to get it done)

Art is right. There are things missing or things that could be better in all of the NLEs. But if I could have only one, it would be Premiere. Luckily, I don't have to have only one.

Scott: I am editing with Premiere and I feel it every minute I'm in it. FCP7 gets out of my way.
Paul Zadie: EXACTLY! That's it. It fits however you edit.
Art: I do know key commands, but generally, I'm never in a rush where I need to cut with a key command. Thinking about my next cut takes longer than a key command can make up.
Paul Del Vecchio: 'F' you. : )

I think FCP gets out of your way because you started in it and spent years in it. When I jumped back to Avid, I felt it was annoying at first because I was used to something else. When I jumped into FCP7 from Avid and Premiere and Sony Vegas years ago, I thought it did so many things backwards. Media can exist in my timeline but not in my bin? Wtf? Titles? What a shitty title tool! Wait... I have to double click and load this clip into the source monitor before modifying its effects? I don't just highlight it in the timeline?

These are all different ways of doing things or shortcomings or even advantages depending on who you ask. It all depends on who you ask. Of course, some things are clearly better implementations in certain apps,

but it's just a matter of getting used to it.

In Avid, when you switch and try it for the first time, you think you have to babysit the way sync works and setting up the rollers in order for the ripple to work correctly, but once you understand it and know it well, you start to realize that you just made a complex edit in ONE move rather than 2-3 in FCP.

That's just one comparison, which is a long way of saying....

Find out how a program works and what the most efficient way of doing something is in that particular app. Then, do it that way and you'll find that it becomes second nature just like it did in FCP. When you started, you had to learn the way FCP did things. Now you have to learn it in other apps. Some are more efficient than others, but you have to recognize the advantage. In Premiere, that would be the GPU acceleration and speed of the program. Less time waiting for your result and more time tweaking and making it better. Keep an open mind. Dont say, "Oh, it doesn't work like FCP so it sucks."

Trust me, there's plenty in Premiere that will make you go, "Wow!" if you just give it a chance.

Oh yeah, and "F" you too, handsome.

Philip Hodgetts is PO'd. "I’m really annoyed that persistent In/Out points made it to this release."

I have, and am, giving PP a chance. So is my assistant. No "Wows" coming from either of us yet.

I agree with Paul that it's so much what you're used to. I move between Avid, FCP7 and PPro at work on sometimes a daily basis and they all work great, all do nearly the same thing. All have strengths, all have weaknesses. I love FCP7 but I don't find it any "better" than any other, just different.

So Mr. Wingrove, I'm interested to hear you expand on that last comment you made. Have you got to that timeline yet?