I think that a lot of people believe that tech is a meritocracy that welcomes everyone equally, and that women just aren't interested in the industry (otherwise wouldn't they be in it?). I think the story starts a lot earlier in schools and at homes, where girls start to feel like they don't fit in or won't do well because they are the only girl in the class, or all computer questions are directed to their dad or brother.

I believe it's the latter as well. From my own experience, high schools/colleges do a bad job at representing what a career in tech is really like. The stereotype of a guy sitting in his basement hacking away isn't exactly great recruiting material for women. Think about lawyers and doctors—you see doctors saving lives and lawyers wining cases, but you rarely think of that same kind of excitement as a programmer. Perhaps if we could change that perception, more women would take the plunge.

I completely agree, though maybe that is also tech being unwelcoming to women from a very early age--not necessarily people in the industry being unwelcoming, but that the perception of tech is generally unwelcoming. I'm pretty sure I'm only here because I had no idea what I would do with a CS degree, or what a software engineer did, just that I loved coding and it was the only thing I could tolerate for hours on end.

When I was a Technovation program mentor, where high school girls sign up to design and build a mobile app, we asked whether any of them were considering entering engineering or computer science. Only a small percentage said they were. I'm not sure the unwelcoming perception of tech is factoring into the decision at this stage. I think it's that most girls simply have not considered it as a viable career path they could pursue, and therefore don't.

A lot of the barriers are subtle and unintentional, which makes them very difficult to eradicate.

When hiring, do you think that someone who learned to code on their own is probably a better programmer than someone who learned in a classroom? You may overlook someone just as enthusiastic who didn't get an early boost from parents, teachers, and other eager mentors.

These assumptions can affect anyone, but they tend to happen to women disproportionately much, which suggests a systemic problem.

Sharon--I'm glad you brought that up. Though I'm sure that there exist more explicit barriers, such as outright sexism, just being well-intentioned and wanting more women in the industry doesn't mean that you're making it a welcoming place. That reminds of this article, though I wouldn't call her examples "subtle" by any means:

therealkatie.net

As you mentioned, a lot of startups want the stereotypical hacker who goes to hackathons, wins programming competitions, and is confident enough to reach out to the company and say "I'm awesome, hire me." And maybe not just once, but 20 times before the company relents. From what I can tell, that "hacker" is almost certainly going to be male.

I'm interested in what other subtle and unintentional barriers all of you have noticed. By surfacing them, perhaps we can increase awareness.

Some companies really push social events. Others subtly encourage employees to work long hours. Either way, if you expect someone's physical presence, you might alienate parents who need to pick their kids up from school.

If your company is small enough that pretty much everyone shares the same norms and you aren't aware of patterns like this, you run the risk of staying homogenous as you scale. It's not only unjust; in the long term, it's disadvantageous to exclude potential candidates.

Do you think a love of coding is a prerequisite to a career in tech?

Jean -- I asked that question because I'm thinking about your comment that coding is the only thing you could do for hours. I can relate, and in the past I've tended to think that mindset is necessary for long-term success in the industry, but I'm trying to be skeptical of my own assumptions.

More generally, we should be asking ourselves of any given traits: do we look for these in applicants because it's necessary to the job, or because that's just what we're like?

You have to love coding (specifically, using code to solve problems) in order to be a developer or engineer. I think it's less important for other technical roles.

Culture fit is important. But as you mention, Sharon, some companies include too much "rockstar," "guru," "ninja," and "coding is life" talk in their job descriptions. Words like that will draw a narrow sliver of folks.

I've been reading this conversation with great interest in your perspectives. I think the answer to the original question is that it's both, to some degree.

I would love to get your perspectives on this blog post...it suggests that it is in fact up to women to step up their game more. Thoughts? (I think he got a lot of hate for the tone of it, btw).
johnwilker.com

There's widespread belief in tech that it's a meritocracy, which is at once empowering "awesome + work hard = success!" but blinds people to subtle things that disproportionately effect women, e.g. preferring someone who started "hacking" age 10, or using an interview question about FPS.

Great article: straight white male, the lowest difficulty setting there is bit.ly SWM often think we play on the same difficultly setting, but I am not sure we are even playing the same game.

2 things that have happened to me recently: someone doing "the eyes! the breasts! the eyes! the breasts!" and someone who repeated every technical point I made. I don't think these are deliberate, but definitely made me feel self-conscious. It's a thousand little cuts, each one no big deal and not worth complaining about, but they add up. From assuming I'm lost because I was wearing a mini-skirt in first year CS, things have improved, but not entirely. I can understand women opting out of this.

Sara: I certainly understand the sentiments of that post, as I imagine getting technical women for conferences can be as frustrating as recruiting them for companies, but it reminds me of people who say, "why do we need more women in tech if they're not interested?" Women may not apply for talks (or enter CS programs) because they assume they are not qualified even if they are. Or they may not have as many technical buddies in the conference circles.

Cate: Thanks for sharing your experiences. From my end, I've had few negative experiences, but maybe I've been lucky or just oblivious. If you were mentoring a middle school or high school girl who displayed some natural technical abilities, what would you say to them to encourage them in or deter them from that direction?

Also, that link is great!

I just finished my PhD in Computer Science, and it wasn't until the last year or so that I realized that I wasn't a worse programmer because I didn't want to program all the time like many of my male colleagues. It would be lovely if we could somehow change the pervasive feeling that you have to eat, breathe, and live coding to be a good coder.

Lately, I have come to believe that CS for CS sake really doesn't do CS justice. It's when you bring something else to the table to give direction to the CS that interesting things happen, and I wish that was recognized more by the programming culture. It really validates being interested in more than just programming.

I think there are two problems. Firstly, all young people tend to gravitate towards careers that they believe fit their image of themselves. This is influenced by their (often stereotypical) impressions of people with that career, as well as careers they have been exposed to etc. To be horribly general, straight men don't tend to gravitate to becoming interior designers because they don't perceive it as congruent with their self image (what if people thought they were gay?!).

Rightly or wrongly, computer science is not perceived as being a career that is congruent with the self images of many groups (not just women, but jocks, African American and Latinos, gay people, etc.). It's perceived as being something only white or Asian, male nerds do. This greatly impacts the number of people who seek out a CS career. As much as the brogramming movement is misogynistic, I think it is attempting to broaden this nerd stereotype and attract other less nerdy men into CS.

Secondly, those "outsiders" (including women) who decide to ignore societal pressure and go into CS face subtle discrimination throughout their training and career. This is largely unintentional, and often rooted in the very same stereotypes that prevent people outside the stereotype group from entering the field in the first place (but is still problematic, I'm not defending it). And so the negative cycle continues.

I think Cathy has hit the head right on the nail re: stereotypes, and I agree with the comment about brogramming too.

Yes, I think Cathy has summed up the issue very nicely! Stereotypes can be changed (programming used to be a woman's job, after all), though.

Cathy, I agree on both your points. Regarding the first, I think another contributing factor is that most girls don't think it's something they could be good at, so they don't bother to try to see if they might like it. In typical school environments, there would be boys that are all too keen to show off their knowledge and skills, which further makes girls feel they are far behind, when in reality the gap is small. However, this effect compounds over the years until there is a wide gap.

I suggested to one of the high school girls I mentored that she would make a good web developer. She didn't say "Oh, I don't want to do that ever" (which I've heard from other girls, and I attribute that to the incongruent self-image). She looked at me and said "Really? You think so?" It's obvious no one had ever told her that. This was probably the first time she ever considered this as a potential viable path. I wonder how many girls just need a little affirmation.

Alicia: I can definitely see that. Despite having taken two cs courses in high school, I drifted toward Chemistry, Biology and other majors until I realized suddenly (fairly late) that I could major in CS. At this point, I still had no clue what I would do with the degree. Before this (and after this), no one had ever really told me anything about careers in software.

Also, despite not having any negative experiences as the only female in my high school AP Computer Science course, I remember being pretty tempted to attend Wellesley because I thought it would be a welcoming and encouraging place to study CS. Where did my bias that Computer Science at non-women-only schools will be condescending and unsupportive come from, and how can be change that?

Deb Chachra did an *excellent* presentation on women and technology at SXSW2011. If I remember it correctly, what she found is that women's lack of confidence in our abilities keeps most of us from getting into technology. Culture and subtle sexism pushes those of us who are in it out. So maybe the answer is "Both." (With regard to blacks and Latinos, I think it's also about confidence, but compounded by class issues. Harder to want a job when you don't know it exists or how to get involved.)

I won't say there isn't subtle sexism, but I think that's the least of the issues. It's way, way more rare than most women think. As I perceive it, the biggest issues are:
- Girls are raised differently than boys. The toys we give them help them develop their social skills, but not their engineering skills. Relevant: smbc-comics.com By the time most people start trying to get girls into engineering, the "harm" has already been done.
[cont]

2. Women sabotaging themselves. They assume that because the field is male-dominated, they are not welcome. I still remember discussing with a TA at my university how desperate he was to convince some female students that they actually were good (they were!). They were so convinced they wouldn't make it because the field is male-dominated, that they completely refused to acknowledge their competence!

3. Women finding men intimidating, and preferring the nurturing cocoon (read: echo chamber) of female-focused events, over interacting with their peers like a normal adult. Men have the same issues interacting with women, they just have to learn to overcome them as a part of growing up. We should do the same. Or maybe, just maybe, we should start seeing people as humans, rather than genders. We're more similar than we often think.

Also (last post), I find many arguments in this thread just as sexist and stereotypical as the culture they condemn. It's a stereotype that men start coding early and women don't. I started coding at 12, my boyfriend started in college. It's a stereotype that certain phrases turn women away. And if you're about to say "but lets face it, that's what usually happens!", you've just reacted in the way most people react to the stereotypes YOU hate.

Also: Many women think that every time someone is being an ass to them, it's because of their gender. People are often jerks to other people, regardless of gender. Not any negative behavior directed to you is caused by your gender.I haven't experienced much sexism in the industry but I don't keep thinking that everyone that's an ass to me is doing it because I'm female. Just like I can be an ass to people, and it's not because of their or my gender. :)

I'm coming to this thread a little late. So far I've seen so many points that I'd struggle not to agree with but felt it might be worth expanding on one made by @LeaVerou. "Women finding men intimidating, and preferring the nurturing cocoon (read: echo chamber) of female-focused events, over interacting with their peers" - I think as harsh as this statement may come across there is a sad truth. I run developer events & I ask the female attendees what would get them to more of my events. [cont]

In my experience many young women don't know it's an option (re: socialization). Many +1's to Lea about thinking in terms of "humans" and not genders. Just shifting your perspective like that could help your comfort level. There are wonderful people in this industry (you'll find the terrible ones quickly - avoid them). The wonderful people will help you find your place, the terrible people will take it from you. Bottom line: If you love programming, you'll keep fighting and find your voice.

2. Time and time again I get told "I'd turn up to more events if there where more girls attending". As with all free events I have people drop out last minute. I like to try and reduce this as much as I can & I was going through stats I had & noticed a scary fact;

3. The avg drop out rate of attendees is between 15% and 20% (depending on the weather), but the drop out rate amount female attendees is consistently above 80%. Some events I have run where one there was one woman among 60 men had had over 25 woman sign up. I can understand feeling under represented. If you feel underrepresented? Then represent yourself! youtube.com

My advice:
Be the best programmer you can be.
Assume positive intent.
Speak up for yourself.
Control your finances.
Mentor young women in your community.
Write in a technical blog.
Find people you love to work with.
Don't give up.
Rinse/Repeat :)

Also, I don't mean this as serious as this sounds, but this has been on my mind lately: "There's only one thing that will make them stop hating you. And that's being so good at what you do that they can't ignore you." - Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card

Lea, you said that subtle sexism is the least of the issues and that it's very rare, but you also say that girls are raised differently than boys. I think that IS sexism.

I sympathize with what you said about some people sabotaging themselves and feeling intimidated. In my ideal world, everyone would have a very strong sense of personal responsibility. However, I don't think it's okay to assume that people who feel intimidated AREN'T taking responsibility.

My point is that we are all products of our circumstances. If I didn't have parents who praised me for doing well in math classes and encouraged curiosity and had the resources to send me to competitive schools, I would be a very different person today. I want to help any young people who are intelligent and enthusiastic but didn't have those advantages, and based on prevailing gender expectations, it's usually girls who are (subtly or not) pushed away from STEM fields.

I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear about this: I meant subtle sexism in our industry is more rare than many think. Not subtle sexism in general. Society *in general* is incredibly sexist, in both subtle and not so subtle ways. I can rant for hours about the ways that modern society, even in very developed countries, is sexist.

Arran, that's a very interesting statistic about attrition for conference attendance. I didn't realize so many women are so reluctant to attend events without other women. I always participated in male-dominated activities, so I can't relate and am sincerely curious about this.

Does anyone know resources with more detail on motivation? Is it about past experiences with harassment? Lack of interest? (Which is a nebulous thing...) Is it just "I prefer socializing with women"?

Lea, in that case, I think we mostly agree... In my personal experience, too, software engineers are a lot less sexist than society in general. I'm very happy to be in this field :)

Hi, I did look into it further with some of my attendees. Many had some bad experiences but at the same time where confident that was unlikely to be an issue at my events (they know I'd happily throw such people out), the remaining reason was not wanting to stick out as the only girl in the room. On a side note I should re-iterate there are woman in industry who don't give a shit, I tend to see them achieving more, just as I do with men who get involved with the community.

So, maybe the case is it's not sexual discrimination (literally the fact that I'm a female) but gender discrimination (bias against the socially constructed roles I've been taught).

Whenever I've been in an uncomfortable situation with my male peers I've found that they aren't discriminating against me specifically because I'm female, but the way I've been socialized as a young woman makes me susceptible to discrimination.

Also, it's easy to blame some women for not asserting themselves or getting more involved, which is unfair. They deserve a place where they can feel comfortable and productive. I know i've personally felt uncomfortable in an environment retrofitted to include women. Also, this is just my own personality shining through, but I felt extremely uncomfortable/alone at JSConf two years ago because I was one of two women in a room of hundreds of men.

It's unfair to sum it up as 'be stronger.' Your average man would conspicuous, if not uncomfortable, in a room full of women. I'd bet most of the participants in this conversation would feel awkward at a Blacks in Technology meet up. Let's be real: It sucks being The Only. It especially sucks to be treated like The Only. And sometimes us "Onlys" get tired of that and want to stay home.

"Be stronger" is the main attitude that fosters progress. That's how we got voting rights, that's how we started being respected in the workplace, that's how we got all hard-won rights that we now have. Feminism is about transforming society, not just about transforming men. Women's personalities have been shaped by the idea that they are less capable, and that shows in a number of different cases. If we really want equality, we need to shake that attitude off, not embrace it.

Btw, I've often been one of the few women in a male-dominated event (often the only female speaker), but I've never felt uncomfortable for that. I had to think about it to notice, actually, as I don't have it in my mind all the time. I guess I would feel uncomfortable if the attitude of the others was that I don't belong there, but I never sensed anything like that at all. In my experience, they're always happy to see women in the industry, so I'm happy to be there :)

While I'm happy you are not uncomfortable at such events, it seems dismissive to say "get over it". I also don't think "be stronger" is what fosters progress but rather "fight for what you want" which is a subtle but important difference. I generally go to conferences that are mostly men, and I'm quite comfortable with it (I grew up with mostly male friends, etc) but when I was at Grace Hopper for the first time I became keenly aware of the differences of being surrounded by men vs women.

And in general I find I prefer the conferences with more women than just one or two per hundred. It has less to do with not feeling like I don't belong, and more to do with I find that I enjoy the different perspectives that men and women bring to the research subject (I do games research) and the conversations tend to be more interesting for me.

If you feel comfortable in a mostly male environment, that's wonderful. That means you'll have a better time connecting and mentoring other women wanting in.

If you feel like a woman isn't being strong, then she probably doesn't have the skills you've acquired to make you strong. We can choose to disparage her for that, or to teach her.

If there's anything I can do to get more women excited about STEM (special programs, scholarships, mentoring, forgiveness of weakness) i'll take it.