I have heard some argue that baptism is a necessary prerequisite for the remission of sins, while others argue that remission of sins is a prerequisite for baptism. On the one side implying that forgiveness happens at baptism, on the other hand implying that no real forgiveness actually happens at baptism, but only a kind of formal symbolism for something already happened. For the sake of clarity, please specify any differences between what happens at a baptism for an 8-year-old, and a baptism that happens for a convert.