5 years ago, I got into university but after massively underachieving in my A-Levels, I ended up going to my second choice university - one of the lesser-ranked in the country. Many I saw at university, possibly myself included, would have benefited from entering work at 18, gaining experience and building up portfolios of work. Yet the prominence that is placed upon university meant we were all there, many under an illusion that it would be necessary to get a job.

Likewise the focus that is placed upon the necessity to go to university means the ones who don't get places, will feel the force of failure hit them straight away. While often this may be a blessing in disguise, they could have been better prepared if that focus was never there

As with everything it depends 100% on the individual. I hated most things about university A lot of it felt like a waste of time. But the thing I wouldn't trade for anything was spending 4 glorious years reading the best literature ever written. Devouring books, discussing them, analysing them. Sitting in a room with some bright & brilliant (some drunk & useless) people, talking about books. What could be better than that? I'm not the most academically gifted person and I had to work very, very hard for my 2:1 (still bitter it wasn't a 1st!).

I honestly think the problem with university education is that it isn't about the education for most undergrads any more. It's about getting shit faced as much as possible. That IS a waste of time/£.

Don't get me wrong, I think university (at least with humanities) *should* be about learning in the way you did.

But at my university, a lot of the people there spoke of their degree in terms of how it was going to help them get a job, and a lot didn't seem to particularly enjoy English as a subject to study and it felt like an extension of school. And when I spoke to many people, the common response was at their school they'd been spouted the '£100k more in your lifetime' stat with the implication that a degree from *any* uni would help you on your way.

Yeah, this is where Labour's focus on getting everyone to go to university falls down. Having a degree in Retail Management from Southampton Solant is not a useful as actually working in retail for three years.

I'm fairly confident that nothing I've done (good A Levels, good degree) was as helpful to my job prospects than doing a fucktonne of work experience. I had references from people I'd worked with. That's gold dust when hundreds of thousands of people are graduating every year.

I think it depends on the degree you do, I didn't get the grades I wanted at A Level. At all. So i chose a similar course, specifically because had a year's work experience included. The fact that I worked abroad in that year also helped to not only get hands-on experience, but was definitely a distinguishing factor in job interviews.

I went to a school where about 98% of people went to uni afterwards, I don't think that's the right attitude at all so I would agree too much focus is put on going and not enough is said about alternatives.

There are also countless examples of people who have had staggering success with next to no 'official' qualifications. University shouldn't be the only option, having said that I loved every minute.

Welcome to the age of economic crisis. It amazes me how this debate feels relatively new on UK land. In Italy, we have been debating the value of university education for years. And we also reached a conclusion. University isn't the key to unlock your dream job (or any job, for that matter). Unless, bien sur, you are a doctor or somebody who needs a piece of paper to prove their ability to exercise a profession or at least start doing so. For the rest of us, children of fluffy job descriptions and incomprehensible job titles, university doesn't help. It's a fact, not an opinion.
Now, what's also a fact is that in Italy employers expect to hire employees with a degree, this is a conditio sine qua non. Even if you work in PR.

The worrying trend being having a degree has become a must. Regardless to the fact that then you need to also get a shocking amount of work experience before being even considered. In a nation where the keyword is “internship” you can see how difficult it may be to get a solid background in any sector. To wrap this up, going to university is about studying what you love, improving your knowledge, develop as a person and also meet some good friends. It isn’t about getting a job after graduating. Affordable university courses start at £3,000 per year.

That’s a minimum of £15,000 invested to get a job. Most home-grown start-ups need a fraction of this to get off the ground. A suit from Next costs £150. Most of us have a hand to knock on doors. For free. There are better ways to find a job then going to university.

P.S. Yes, I write a lot.

Whilst you're in school / college you're in the education factory and they will always try and upgrade you to their latest product. Understanding that dynamic in any walk of life is something that comes from parents probably and maybe other sources (eg literature or music - I listened to a lot of Wu Tang which is littered with conspiracy theories).

Best advice I ever got was from my History lecturer who told me to "pick something I'd enjoy, not something I thought would get me a job." I chose English and American studies and loved it.

It's all about hard work and passion. We all have a good shot (uni or not) if we work hard at something we care about. If uni allows you to inflate your passion then that's the best you can hope for I think.

Really interesting discussion. Personally, I think the route between uni and work (or school and work) fails people in this country. But I think the time spent in uni is valuable for many people. I was immature aged 18. Arguably I still am, but at least I managed to get most of it out of my system through time spent meeting lifelong friends and consuming incredibly interesting books and concepts. Did I need it directly for my job? Perhaps no. Did I need it to be able to build a salient argument and write it down? I think so. Did I need it to grow up and get a life? Most certainly. Incidentally, aside from the fact that there is no one-size-fits-all answer, here's a paper suggesting university is generally valuable: i3.makcdn.com

"But I think the time spent in uni is valuable for many people." I agree @peter

Admittedly I have a very US-centric view on this issue - and the link I am providing is from a US debate on whether or not too many kids are going to college. My take away from the conversation is that the learning that takes place in college or university is what needs to change. I agree with the branchers that have posited the experience of college or university - living around and sharing ideas with a diverse group of people - is indispensable. If you have some time, give this a listen ...

intelligencesquaredus.org

And another radio show worth listening to, from the folks that wrote the book Freakonomics. All about the market for fake degrees. I haven't listened to part 2 yet, but it seems to talk to the conversation being had here as well.

freakonomics.com

In her amazingly useful book 'Love is not enough' Merryn Somerset Webb put the total lifetime salary gain from a first degree at £100,000. This is not a huge amount so the ROI on university is unlikely to be cash, and you had better enjoy being there because it's costing a lot. I also get cross when I hear the 'doesn't matter what you choose for a first degree' spiel. Why would you invest so much in something that doesn't matter?

If you are not sure about university then take some time to decide. Mabe think in terms of ' a year of service' rather than an indulgent 'gap year'. You will learn huge amounts, may possbly even get paid a little and end up in a much better place to think about university.

For various reasons (qualifications, bad luck) I never got the chance to got to University so left college and went straight into work.

The only thing I regret is missing out on the life experiences, friendships that can come of it.

I'd still encourage my kids to go, for that and the educational grounding it can give them.

University are 500 years old. They are obsolete. The future is what harvard and MIT is doing. edx.org

I´m sure my son (4 years) is not going to College.

@Bruno let's say you can split gaining an undergraduate degree into four achievements: gaining the technical knowledge of the degree; gaining transferrable skills such as problem solving, idea generating, writing; developing personal interests influenced by people from all over the world; making valuable personal connections. I love the look of edx and am sure it can tick the first two of these boxes. But can it deliver the last two? If you depend on your first job for developing interests and making connections, couldn't it narrow your horizons very young?

"developing personal interests influenced by people from all over the world" - The internet is also a great place for that. Aren´t we doing this right now? I´m from Brazil, nice to meet you.

"making valuable personal connections." Thats great, but I wouldn´t pay thousands of dollars annualy for that. It can be done everywhere for free.

@Bruno @Pete I personally think that one of the best things you gain out of university is the luxury of "being". With this I mean learning who you are as a person, what you want to become in the future and have the time to explore the things you're interested in. It’s about growing up and developing as an individual. This is invaluable to me. And a luxury you rarely have in adult life. Purely for this reason I advocate taking the time to go to university (or similar educational experience). Sometimes is a conscious journey, sometimes is more of a “look back at what I used to be” experience. Both very valuable nevertheless.

@bruno nice to meet you too :)

There are at least four things to being educated: learn how to learn, learn what you love, learn how to become an expert, and learn how to lead. The purpose of a liberal arts education was to raise the next crop of leaders. That in combination with a professional degree is how you become an expert at university. It's not the only way. In music we call it wood shedding, but all disciplines from pipe fitting to surgery require hours of practice to achieve mastery. Finding your calling whether it becomes vocation or avocation is another element. Followership is the foundation of learning to learn and ought to happen before university. Learning how to study, take critique, take instruction, time management, stress management, etc.

Guys, I really think that the focus, has to be on the 'value' that you get out of the University education, before any other consideration of whether or not it's a worthwhile endeavour. I ended up getting a degree, but frankly, would have preferred, learning through the school of hard knocks, as I would have developed my entrepreneurial skills and talents much sooner..
For people who know specifically what they want to develop, as skills/talents, then great - but most of the people I graduated with, ended up in jobs, where they learnt the job from scratch. The only reason they needed a degree was to qualify for the entry criteria to be considered for the job.

On the topic of making connections: again it is specific to the type of university you go to. If you arrive at a red brick/Ivy league university, you are likely to make connections who will be useful in later life.

With the lower-tiered universities/colleges, where perhaps university - academically/in terms of career - wasn't the best option for many, that doesn't help you at all.

I have made almost every 'connection' that I have through Twitter or through blogging: connections I never would have had the ability to make without social media.

It seems that some of my fresh-out-of-high school staff need to be fed knowledge and skills, but a year or so of college and they're more proactive about it. Degree or no degree those simple thirsts will make your life much better.

Not everybody is meant to go to college/university. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that society is every going to loosen their importance of education (because it IS important).

Unfortunately in the middle of the current economic crisis there is very little option for kids other than to go to university. What could they be doing otherwise? In the UK we have a real cultural problem around not valuing any education other than A-levels and degrees. This is not going to chnage until politicians get behind alternatives (and don't just give warm words about "technical colleges" that never materialise).

I had the fortune of of taking the School of Hard Knocks route with my education. It took me longer to figure out what I wanted than anything else.

I wouldn't trade my life experience for anything, however now, at 29, I am craving a University atmosphere in my daily life. The chance to be surrounded by intelligent people with similar interests and a well of knowledge to draw from makes me as giddy as a 12 year old girl!

Furthermore, I get paid as a developer now, who's gonna pay me to go to school? Sure development is a constantly evolving world, so self education is crucial at all times, but there is something to be said about the foundation a university education can provide.

The recession in the US proved the importance of a degree (as is probably the case in most countries experiencing an econ crisis. Here's a great article illustrating

Personally, I'm a freelance web developer/server infrastructure/operations guy in the UK. I have zero qualifications, I'm self taught from 16 onwards. In this industry there are no requirements for qualifications, it's mostly based on what projects you can show them whether that be open source projects or sites you've created. Referrals go a long way as well. University (when I'm hiring) is not even considered, I want to see what you're capable of.

Depending on the course you took, there are some principles that are taught in University you will most likely never learn on the job.

Of course University is a great personal experience as well... Expensive, but great!

Alot of times when you work, you do your job, University and being in a environment with so many different people studying different things you open your mind.

I'm someone who's hardly ever been out of higher education having done 2 degrees and a professional qualification. I work at a university too, so it's clear to see which side of the fence I sit on. Having said that, if work experience really is just as valuable as having a degree more people could consider working full time whilst doing part time higher education study via distance learning providers like the Open University. The best of both worlds...

The focus on university has a lot to do with the fact that most western countries depend on knowledge, not resources or hard labour, to ensure economic success. So as far as economic policy goes, the focus on university isn't bad at all. It's really a great investment to make for a country.

That being said, it's not the only way to get the knowledge required to make a good life and a substantial contribution to 21st century society. But it's hard to develop the alternatives. It's a huge project to ensure that education is effective - and that's why your accredited degree is more than just a sign that you spent a lot of money on it.

And personally? I loved university. It brought me back from totally hating high school. Screw high school.

Amen to screwing high school....

Back when I did University there were only BBS boards for knowledge...and they were not that knowledgable....

Now with the internet I can see how this debate comes about. Though there are some things I learned, and experienced that I couldn't get off the net.

Agreed with there being things you can't learn on the net. So much of what I learned in high school - and which eventually led to me doing an honours major in philosophy - was from going on forums and arguing with people. It built critical analysis skills that you don't get unless you really truly need to prove someone wrong haha. But! If I didn't go to university, I never would have actually refined that desire to prove people wrong into something more valuable - the ability to be fair to others' points.

I guess I've got a question for everyone: is university more or less important for tech careers? What about the humanities? I have a feeling like you could learn what it takes to be a great developer without going to university.

Really interesting column on the subject >> telegraph.co.uk

One of the things I always found amusing was a stat we were told at school: that university graduates would earn an extra £100,000 in their lifetimes compared to non-graduates. If we assume that figure was after tax, and the graduate will be working for 44 years (21-65), that's an extra £2,272 a year. The average student will now walk away with £53,000 of debt. This reduces their yearly gain to just £1,068 a year. If, however, that stat was *before tax*, then it's going to be even less.

And this is for the 'average' graduate. Considering the numbers who will earn significantly more than £100k than non-graduates, it makes you wonder just how much "more" the 'average' graduate really will take home.

Now, I know that entirely ignores all the other reasons you may go to university, but it was supposed to be one of the encouraging factors presented to us at the time.

Personally, I went to college for humanities (B.A. in Lit, focus on poetry) and then became self-taught in the tech world working for various start-ups over the past 12 years or so. It was a great, invaluable experience and have no regrets but I still owe money on the loans to this day. I now have a daughter about to start college and it's tough sending her knowing how many more opportunities to build your own life/career without college. She wants to be a physicist so it's almost necessary, but my son who is 2 years younger wants to be in film/music... college seems like a waste compared to internships, mentorships, etc.

... I've told them both, though, that what I do now did not exist when I was their age. So, I've always encouraged learning how to learn and be adaptable and passionate. School isn't as important as the social connections and being in that intense learning environment of your peers all exploring/learning at the same time.

@Tracy couldn't agree with you more.. To be honest, most of the jobs/professions that will be required of kids, by the time they leave university will not have existed when they went into them. Academic knowledge, for all it's value, and contribution, to our 'society' of business, and money, is of negligible contribution. The number of people who need to get fresh qualifications when they graduate (lawyers, financial advisers, accountants, solicitors, even teachers), they can all enter their professions, by studying the materials needed for their qualifications. Even technology, most of the tech didn't exist 5 years ago, let alone 3 years ago (think FB & Twitter API's)...

A real education isn't 4 years studying some books, it's a lifetime of learning & questioning. I studied an International Baccalaureate Diploma, instead of A' Levels, and the critical reasoning, and evaluative skills of logic and debate were all part of the core curriculum, as a consequence, when I got to university, most of the 'education' there just wasn't anywhere near as challenging as the IB had been. And if we properly put students to work, instead of the 6 months vacation that's there, between all the terms, there's no reason why academic studies couldn't be completed in 2 yrs not 4. Fundamentally, there's nothing you learn at Uni that you can't learn online now, and the connections you get online, are way more valuable than uni

Whilst in our day, Universities might have had an invaluable role in preparing kids, and students, for life in the real world, I think with the way technology, & tools are evolving the landscape faster than academia can keep up, we have to accept that kids growing up with this knowledge base, and capacity on tap, just don't need a 'degree' the way we did. What they need is the discipline to do hard work, and to be able to work consistently, based on the needs of businesses they create, or are employed by. & in those circumstances, if they're willing to learn as they go, they'll learn the most. & if they're not willing to learn, they just won't learn at all.. Attitude, and effort, are worth infinitely more than paper, & intelligence IMHO

The importance of University varies through professional branches. If you try to be a lawyer, there is no other way to do it. If you want to be a software developer, there is plenty. Anyway two or three things remain true: 1) univ. is not only a bundle of books and syllabuses, but a life experience; 2) in big numbers, univ. graduates fare much better in the labor market than non graduates, anywhere in the world; 3) besides that, a higher education title is does no longer guarantee a good job.

In the terms of Ralph Turner, I would say that we are passing from a sponsored (social) mobility model (if you get the diploma, you've got the job) so a contest mobility model (competition begins once you've got the diploma). In any case, knowledge creation and diffusion can no longer wait for the academic slow pace, specially in the fields of ICT, AV, and alike.

Last but not least: Thanks for adding me to the conversation.

@Mariano

I agree totally, the importance of a university education goes far beyond what you learn from the books and lectures. Personally my degree bares little to no relation to my eventual career, yet it was the experiences and skill I picked up from going to University that prepared me my the career.

I've been asked to return to my Alma Marta next year to talk to the students about my experiences since graduating and I will be focusing on the skills you learn throughout the degree mean more to your future career than degree itself.

Is it safe to say that those who themselves enjoyed their time at university believe it confers significant value over and above a title, and is therefore likely time well spent for a large number of people; while those who personally feel university did not offer much other than give them their degree are prone to suggest the value of university is overblown?

My answer? I seriously enjoyed my time there, and feel like it did teach and offer things that couldn't have been offered but for in small, focused seminars on esoteric topics.

Knowledge is power, and going to University may be the best way to absorb as much of it as one can because we dedicate ourselves to only learning (that differs from reading books time to time).

Studies also show that going to University is a great investment because of it ROI after you graduate in terms of positions and salaries.

It is possible to have a good position and a good salary without studying. Indeed, lots of engineers or designers are self-taught, and sometimes going to school in these areas can be a waste of times because the programs are not up to date. However you have to be someone really good to survive.

It also depends on the country you plan on working at. Certain countries pay more attention to your soft skills while other concentrate on your diploma.

Finally, I leave you with a podcast from Freakonomics about going to College:
cl.ly
and
cl.ly

I have gone through University, got a degree and a job ready after graduating. I know that is not everyones case and that it does not work for everyone. But I agree that too much emphasis gets put on going to college, and that is because i feel much of the current system for college is broken. We are emphasising a system that involves throwing down tons of money, to sit in a room to listen to a person rattle on facts(at least we hope they are) and then regurgitate that up for a test and then that information is then forgotten. If the approach of education wasn't so broken then I think more emphasis could be put on it.