I started reading comic books casually in 1981/1981 - mostly Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica tie ins. Then in 1983 I started picking up Star Wars on a regular basis, followed by Transformers and GI Joe. My friend, who was into superhero comics thanks to his Dad, got me interested in expanding my reach beyond toy lines. One day I had an extra $.60 on my trip to the 7-11, and picked up my first issue of Uncanny X-Men. Shortly after I found my first true comic book store, and I was in!

I stopped reading around 1994 - first real job, girls, you know how it is, then picked up again for a short period between 1999 and early 2001, when I dropped out again.

In 2010, encouraged by some co-workers, I dug back in hard core.

@Bazooka_Bob asked "What is the biggest change in comics to you from the young Don to the older Don?"

Ironically, I think I prefer the same comics in my late 30's that I did in my pre and early teens, though in that brief 99-01 stint, I really got into non-superhero comics like Cerebus, Preacher, and Transmet.

I'd have to sum up the biggest difference between then and now in one word: Inaccessibility.

When comics were written with spinner racks in mind, I think writers took more time to bring a reader into any issue assuming it was his or her first. Today it feels as though writers go in expecting you to know most things about the universe and cut to the chase.

I'm pretty sure this was my first X-Men comic:

I understand what you mean, older comics were dialog heavy( a thing I miss) and full of exposition to catch the reader up or just to explain stuff. One thing I do prefer now to the former time is that artwork had changed a lot when the comics hayday came along with lee/liefeld/others and since then has open up a lot of different styles.
I love how one comic can look painted(mouse guard) and another can be cartoon style(the goon). It makes for more personalities to get involved and preferences to be met.

The way I got into comics was my older sister in the nineties read batman and the xmen. My parents raised us like Christians and saw the covers and said no way Jose'. The covers in the 90's always had some chick half naked or a demon on the cover. My sister was allowed to buy them, I just wasn't allowed to read then but I did *gasp*. She was buying during xmen Claremont/Lee and the knightfall era of batman.
When I got into comics on my own I immediately went to GI Joe and ultimate xmen. I bought comics by myself through my teen years and then I got deployed to Iraq. Seth wanted to have something to talk to me about while I was away so he would buy for me and by accident really got into comics.

Yeah, in the mid-80's you had "hotshots" like Art Adams, but it wasn't until Lee, McFarlane, and Liefeld showed up that the age of the Artist really felt like it began. It bums me out that Liefeld gets so much credit for that - I know McFarlane was hot long before him, and I feel like Lee was around during that time too (on Punisher War Journal) before he came to Uncanny (which admittedly, was around the same time Liefeld was on New Mutants).

(I always meant to say this - but thank you for your service!)

I had the same thing with comics and my mom. They weren't nearly as racy - particularly the ones I read - it wasn't until Silvestri took over X-Men that the implication of thongs and skimpy clothes really got big. My mom was always more worried about content - the Inferno crossover really upset her - she was very wrapped up in that 80's Christian fear of backmasking, D&D, and "real" witchcraft being presented to children in the form of entertainment.

(Your welcome, strange to look back on that portion of my life now)
Seth got deep into comics and couldnt buy enough. He would buy me my stuff and just went nuts on DC and Ultimate Spidey. Cant remember what all he was buying but I do remember we both had our creative ideas tweaked and while I was over there I would call him with comic ideas that I would write down on my note pad when I was bored. We invited a whole world and had tons of fun making new branches of the world and genealogies. When I got back in 04-05, Seth and I flew out to Wizard World LA. We scripted a full comic set in our world and wrote 2-3 issues but our artists wasnt able to finish because of family/work/life. Still would like to get back to that...

This is weird, because my mom is to blame for my infatuation with comics. She used to frequent an old book store looking for her Harlequin romance books and I would just roam the aisles back and forth until she said "time to go." One day I noticed a bin in the back filled with old comics even at that time (I was 10 or so at the time) and I went thru them like one would go thru water after being in the desert. I started out with Micronauts, Sgt Rock, and Weird War Tales (among others of the like) and graduated to GI Joe and Transformers. It wasn't until my mom started buying her books new that i discovered the comics rack at Walden Books in the mall and found "super hero" comics.

Brad - it's amazing how powerful those GI Joe, Star Wars, and Transformers comics were in getting so many kids into comics. Until recently I looked at licensed comics skeptically, then I realized they're a great gateway (as I'm sure Walking Dead is, which is kind of a quasi licensed comic if you consider how the interest over the past two years is coming from a TV show)

I was late to the X-Men. X-Factor 15 > media.comicvine.com was my introduction into the mutant world. I was obsessed with the idea of what a mutant was after being a diehard TMNT fan for a bit. The X-Men seemed like a natural progression and starting in during the Mutant Massacre event got me super hooked

Ethan - you should do it. Just keep writing. From what I read it's really, really difficult to find an artist, and it's not always easy for a writer to tell if an artist is even "good enough" to draw a comic (sequential art and pin-ups are two different worlds).

"Gateway" is SO right, but the gateway back then was to the toys and the cartoons and I fell in hook, line and sinker. Kids don't really have that these days unless they're girls or really into Dora the Explorer. Probably why so much rides on the films, because they're the new ads to promote comics. The Walking Dead seems to only promote its own comic source, not comics as a whole.

Comics are hard. Plain and simple. It's something where the work and completion of that work or their own rewards. if you're looking for riches- DON'T DO COMICS. PERIOD. Most creative careers the same can be said for, but comics are a niche market that seem to have very limited overlap into other arenas. For example, my drawing style is obviously considered "comic book", and it's prevented me from many opportunities in video games because people seem to inherently separate art from comics. Still to this day, it boggles my mind. And the fact that they naturally assume that a "comic artist" can't execute other styles is downright ludicrous. I'm ranting again...

I saw Walking Dead to the degree that Titus and Sarah have mentioned people walking into the store to get the comic who have never come in otherwise before. Getting someone into a comic store is step one.

I'm not sure movies get anyone into comics, I don't know, I feel like they're seen as their own thing, a one way street. I say this because Avengers is the new Star Wars - my kid is covered in Marvel and Avengers clothing, just like all the other kids in his school. As far as he knows, he's the only one who reads comics.

Yeah, Brad - I believe one MUST treat making comics as a business (the #1 failure of most indie comics people), but one can't take that fact and confuse it with wealth or even making money. Business is just the right word because that's where you find the tools to do it well (because you can't run it like a non-profit, either).

You run it like a business that will never break even.

As far as what Brad is saying, I would say with shows like phineas and ferb, all the marvel and dc cartoons, and movies that kids today have a definite gateway but chose not to read comics because reading is work. To the generation of all electronic and internet capability, sitting down and reading something that isnt laid out and already paved for you seems like too much like work.

Now getting adults into comics has seemed a lot easier for me, I just tell them what to read, they read the good stuff and like reading a john grisham book or whatever they want more and more.

As far as writing, I still have a huge imagination but unfortunately its hard for me to get any of it out. I took english in college and still have the GI bill for more if I want a creative writing class or whatever. I would like to talk Seth into writing again. I dont know if its just having someone to share the fun of spitballing or help when you get stuck but its nice to have someone there with you who you are accountable to.

Read this. Don't fret that it's a screenwriting book. Also read On Writing by Stephen King. If they don't inspire you and give you some direction... well, you'll just have to try harder :)

Yeah, what Ethan says is very true and very sad in that most kids DON'T want to work for anything. Even if they enjoy it.

STORY is a must read. It's the new writer bible. Read it and put it's rules into your process asap.

Bah, we're being old men. Our parents said the same thing. I know we'll all demand that it's different now but I don't buy it. No books sold like Harry Potter when we were kids - NO BOOKS - kids read and they read a lot.

They just don't find themselves directed at comics. I think the difference is that Marvel movies and DC cartoons are probably better and more accessible to kids. Seriously - what comic do you tell a Teen Titans fan to read? Or a Korra fan? There isn't one that even closely matches.

(in terms of having the same characters - I know there are dozens of all ages books in the store)

I'm not saying they don't read- I'm saying they don't actively pursue anything for themselves. Harry Potter and Twilight are huge because people said "THIS IS GOOD. YOU WILL ENJOY THIS" and they blew up. 50 Shades of Grey is the new line or word of mouth marketing

Not sure what the difference is. I mean, hell, I can't let my kids walk into a comic store and pursue anything for themselves. I have to find stuff I deem appropriate for them and hand it to them.

And this might not be a popular sentiment, but trends are leaving comics behind. And comics aren't really being progressive to keep up, because -as was said before- comics are an isolated market. Sure, there's overlap into tv and film, but as for comics- they're done for their own, not to really attract those outside. It's almost a cliche that's become fact in the "I'll wait for the non comic interpretation of this to come out" And the comics are ignored until Spiderman or Superman dies, but even the marvel Gay Wedding didn't get much play

I read amazon.com A long time ago and it was rather helpful in writing terms, I will check out those other ones sometime.

LOL, that's called parenting, Don. What I meant for "kids" are those in the 12-18 range that start or maintain their own decisions. I was around 12-13 when my mom would just drop me off at the comic shop and I'd have until she got back to be in what was MY Disneyland

Brad - not sure where you get that - New52, Marvel NOW, writing for the one shot, digital - the comics industry hasn't done this much in such a short period of time to attract new readers in 15 years.

I think we do agree that comics are seen as source material for other things - movies, TV, video games - but that's to be expected with Disney and Warner Bros in the mix

Ethan - I love William Goldman, but I don't recall that or the sequel being very informative about the writing process - just about his experiences being (one of the greatest ever) screenwriters. You should look into a craft book.

I disagree, with all the big comidians and actors right now(Kevin Smith, Seth Rogan, Jason Segal, Ect) and the shows and movies that have been made with a ton of references to comics, "scenesters" will gobble up stuff like Sandman, Watchmen, Sin City, ect. The styles have been for the past year, pushing towards being a "nerd" or "geek". The hipsters will pick up TPB that are considered must reads just so they have cred. Not sure when the fad will die out but it has kept those fringe people in for the street cred.
Not sure how kids view hipsters and whatnot but I would rather have home grown comic readers who start out on stuff like Bone, Mouseguard, Scrooge, Ect. rather then picking up the dark comics to fit into the scene.

I think they're just doomed ploys. Why does Marvel and DC have to re-invent long standing characters and rehashed storylines to attract new readers? Why can't they create something new? The Avengers will always be the Avengers, unless they decide to alienate their regular supporters.
The new property is what will take comics out of the rut it's currently in. But it has to be a Marvel or DC that creates these new widespread brands otherwise you're just running the gambit and hope that a new indie will pop up and catch their 15 minutes until the next thing. It's a vicious cycle that i think the marvel definitely has the ability to break by creating new properties for new genres that don't incorporate their existing lines

As far as Don needing to parent his kids away from certain comics, it is an absolute must. There are a lot more 17+ comics out there then when I was kid. A lot of Gore, Sex, Drugs, Swearing, and other stuff that wasnt in the mainstream comics as much when I was younger. I think the children comics these days are a lot higher quality then the stuff that I grew up on(Archie for example :P) and the writing is a lot more superb because its written by writers with LotR type ideas rather then just trying to turn a buck off a young kid who see's superman in a kids comic.

The "New" argument is a red-herring. They aren't new to you, that doesn't mean Iron Man isn't new to a 10 year old. I think Marvel and DC recognize that better than aging fanboys like us.

Revamping Superman, an American Brand, is the wisest busines decision and one I'd make eight out of ten times. People who know Superman will be interested, people who found Superman inaccessible will be interested. You invent "Bonder Women" - who gives a crap? The last 20 years are littered with attempts to create New and they rarely ever pan out. I think Avatar/Korra are examples of successes... what else? The success of those don't point to "This will work", they are the exceptions that prove the rule. I'm not saying that new characters are bad, I'm saying with all my heart that they are not a panecea by any stretch. I think the answer is in the right combination of the two.

Ethan - the problem I have, with two young kids, is that the kids comics aren't available. They are in my comic shop, but no where else. I see from ICV2 they sell like crap, too. My 10 year old is shifting into stuff I read, and I'm cool with it - he went from Tiny Titans to Amazing Spider-Man and the new Ultimate Spider-Man, to now he's reading AvX and interested in other "mainstream" Marvel comics I bring home. Still - no X-Force, and frankly, no DC books. Supergirl was good for a while, but it got really violent really quickly.

Don- Dont know why but I immediately thought of the Calvin and Hobbes panel where he is reading comics and the guys spleen gets punched out of his back ahaha

Don- I can think of a ton of titles for young readers that are in HC or TPB that might be found at Barnes and Nobles, Waldens, Borders, or whatever you have near you. If you ever want a list, the boys from AC love fun books that are young reader friendly.
Thats cool how he is getting into the next level of comics. Your right about violence in those comics. As a kid I probably exposed myself to too much violence in movies, comics, and games and had a poop ton of nightmares growing up.

But just from a education and humor stand point, I think that if your son is exposed to stuff like Calvin and Hobbes, it helps drive his creative and imaginative side. I think if it werent for books like Calvin and Hobbes, I wouldnt have half the imagination and drive to enjoy it. Sorry, not sure how I got off the topic of comics and onto Calvin and Hobbes. i.usatoday.net

The problem in the past when Marvel or DC has started something new, they don't put the right teams on them that not only best serve the property, but this lack of consideration almost dooms them before they begin.
Saying we need a new Superman is unnecessary. What's needed are new role models that fit the current trends that don't have to be included in the current stories. The problem is that they try to "invigorate" the mainstay properties by introducing an "Impluse" type character that just make the older properties seem that much older and over time the new character becomes the new rehashed property.

But I think a perfect example for what you're referring to is Doctor Who, who is considered new to many on our side of the pond - while being older and reinvented in the new iterations. I just think that Doctor Who is the exception rather than the rule

Brad- or Thor who seems to die and be reborn every year :-p .

I look at The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (Millinium Trilogy) as an example for a character fitting of current trends. Now, new properties don't have to be dark themes, but such are considered more interesting and familiar because- let's face it- these are darker times and they facilitate an isolated character that is more familiar because today seems more isolated than ever

Exactly. I think that comics are still stuck in the four color "platform" with saturated palettes and good guys are represented in this saturated to symbolize "goodness" and villains are conversely symbolized and more and more readers are becoming more familiar with the villains because they know people or experience like attributes more than the hero whose actions are becoming more and more unfamiliar because we seem to be turning into this victimized society where Stockholm Syndrome is a subdued characteristic. Maybe too deep for reasoning, but these are trends that can't be properly interpreted in a Superman or Thor story without seeming "preachy" and are thusly ignored.

I don't follow on the role model thing, but that's probably just a personal difference. Superman is a timeless role-model, if anything, mucking with that can only go bad. But again, I think our perspective on rehash is that of an enormously tiny portion of the sample size. Iron Man is brand spanking new to the world, and clearly resonated with audiences, ditto for Thor and Captain America.

I used to agree with that as much as 6 months ago, even. I love Superman and Captain America, but in disagreements with the PK gang see that Superman has become a grandpa with current trends. The ideals and such that he represents are no longer valued. I don't have to like it, it is what it is. The more people I speak to outside and even inside the US think that the Avengers could have been a better film if Captain America weren't in it. He naturally symbolizes an ideal that, correct or not, he represents the government that the entire world right isn't very fond of. And that's where things lie currently because it's a very slippery slope that is made easier to keep the status quo than to "rock the boat"

I don't have anything constructive to say in response to that.

But I think Ethan sort of nailed it on the head earlier by saying that modern trends tend to engage and include the "nerd" rather than exclude and berate.

And when such a drastic trend should change, so should those aspects that represent such trends.

Geek culture is definitely mainstream at this point.

First, I got to say I sort of saw the birth of the Spawn boom in comics, so that was my first approach to those lovely little demons I enjoy reading.
SNES game of Spawn, then comics about Spawn and the marvels of Image Comics.
That dude rocks.
Secondly, I am not bothered that the things that I like are in the public eye nowadays. I grew up with games, manga, anime, comics and the likes. It all will come temporary to those who do not possess a true heart for it.
Plus, since geek is always the odd and non-mainstream, geek culture shall never be mainstream, it just moves to other stuff.

This topic reminded me of a friend who pointed out something that has relevance to what we are talking about. He said, more or less: "take Marvel and DC. Us fans thrive on asking people, with or without experience in comics, which of the two they like more. They often say Marvel, because, to the public eye, they have more likable heroes than DC. But some of us, who have gathered and read many eras of comics of both houses, know that the stories in the golden eras where, well, gold. True gold. They were bold. Their awesomeness layed in the capability to present things that we would never see commonly. Now, that originality to impress is missing most of the time. Today, Marvel is nerdcandy. DC is veteran nerdcandy".
He drank more beer after.

@Marcus - the DC analogy is an interesting one. In my youth, aside from DC's events like Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and a few others, I just couldn't relate to DC characters (I was an X-Men guy). I tried the New 52 and it lost me quickly - however, I've gone back and read some of those titles as trades and I have a different opinion (we've talked about this progress on our podcast recently).

I wish I could put into words the relevant to me difference I perceive between DC and Marvel - it might just be what I grew up reading - DC characters seem more Olympian and godlike or something - there's something often times in accessible to me about them - but I'm growing to like it.

@Don Garvey, olympian and godlike indeed.
Heroes in DC always have to guard this image of what a typical good-old-school hero must be and take their characters, at times, maybe too serious. Marvel always played with this image, making it, also at times, a little too playful for my taste. It was at the late 90's that I found the beginning in a lack of quality and a vision for quantity.
I find the authentic and natural evolution from the 90's comics in private creations and minor comic houses. Plus, since a part of the contemporary addition to the art is the visual styles and literary elements, I do find my joy and jewels in today's graphic novels. Searching for good ones is a job, cause' when you find one, it's gold as the ones in the past.

For me it all came down to one event, and one event alone. The Death Of Superman. Being however old I was at the time, and only knowing of the Superman from TV shows the idea of Superman dying was something that quickly had me clinging to what at my young age had assumed would be the final few episodes of one of my first heroes.

Shortly after The Death of Superman, I started hearing about Knightfall, with the breaking of Batman and caused me to get deep into the comic world. Not hardcore in it anymore, but I'll pick up several trade paperbacks a year to catch up on whats going on in the DC/Marvel worlds.

@Don The new 52 was incredibly bold, and it's not clear to me if it will actually have long term benefits.

It was suppose to revitalize things like Justice League of America, and give a more modern tone to characters like Superman, but I don't know if it had any short term (outside of 3 month sales boost for them across the board) benefits.

As much as it pains me to say, I think we may end up with the legacy timelines, and the modern timelines some how merging in the next 3 or 4 years in the same way characters die and come back from the dead.

The "Marvel Now" initiative I think will end up coming off as a more beneficial by letting things continue while tying up old lines.

@Charles, I couldn't agree more with you! Really.
You actually made me think that the predictability of both houses is appalling.
Perhaps its more accurate to think that DC may learn from some of his errors and make, not heroes, but stories more approachable, avoiding the eye-winkle feeling that has endured in Marvel since this decade. Not dark. No. Just approachable. To actually make one care for that dude with family issues or that superpowered alien thanks to the actions and decisions he makes (and how he makes it).

Think of it. People who get involved into the universe of comics in the present might not find the best of it, or in a few years, they may find a different perspective and a different all than all of our eyes could possibly see.
I dare to say this because of the literature boom I see trending in comic content and story-telling.

@Marcus It's the Buffy-verse issue that Joss Whedon had. Most of the stories in the Buffy-verse were based on years of backstory making it difficult for viewership to grow. Story telling like this is incredibly gratifying for the fans but limits the potential for long term growth by penalizing new comers simply for being new.

Indeed, good vigilant @Charles. Troubling story-telling is troubling for the young lovers.
Newcomers will, at some point, find the crowns of story & art combined in sheering awesomeness of inked pages. Let us hope that they find the truly awesome ones in those that do deserve to be called awesome. You know, those pieces of work that helped develop some astounding comic-crating and fine story-telling for future generations.

@Marcus agreed but its still a fine line.

What was done with Batman and Iron Man are both good examples of expanding and being more approachable while not insulting long term readers.

RIP, and Extremis gave those characters a soft reboot that was easy to follow, and in some ways classic (at least for Extremis).

Some of this goes back to the discussion that Brad and I were having upthread - most of these characters are new to a new reader (as opposed to a lapsed one). I think Marvel Now promises to be New 52 with the wisdom of seeing someone else try it first. Focusing on creative teams, ditching the "reboot" part, staggering releases, still reorganizing into understandable #1's - while still paying service to fans... I have a feeling in a years time it will seem like the better move compared to New 52 (while being infinitely more conservative in the grand scheme of things).

I read Batman: A Death in the Family when I was 10-12 years old. It wasn't the "most appropriate" comic for someone that age to be reading, but it got me hooked. I couldn't believe how intense the emotions in the book were. I had never seen anything like that. The dialogue combined with Robin being brutally murdered by the Joker? Powerful stuff. Made me think twice about being a horrible person.

@Don I agree.

I think there is great freedom in restarting, but the mangled nature of what the New 52 did seemed half-hearted. Restarting the entire universe, but then leaving pockets like the Batman family inside of that universe unchanged is bewildering. I understand that there were great stories and characters that were the reason but a fresh start could have given us a fresh take on things like Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson in a modern timeframe going at it from the beginning and freed up all of the other writers to do a better job of their new take on the rest of the universe.

The entire thing maybe salvageable, but I don't think DC has the focus to do it.

@Charles I know a truly fresh start probably (probably?) would have benefitted me, but I'm starting to think it's too soon to tell. The year over year numbers are strong, and my retailer tells me that the New 52 brought in a ton of lapsed readers who are still coming to the store today. I think the most vital and important memory of the New 52 in the long run will be the digital stuff. That was pretty revolutionary and bold (though only a somewhat minor first step) toward new media and comics.

@Justin I recall being so wrapped up in Death in the Family - I had this cheap trade collection that I'd swear was made of the same stuff Auto-Trader is made of!

@Don if it worked it worked.

As someone who read up a lot on the DC Universe I can say that it was incredibly gratifying to see Bab's take up the cowl again.

At the same time, can you imagine what it would have been like to have a late 20's man running around with a teenage circus performer to fight the streets? Let alone the modern take you could have of having that same late 20's man encounter his best friends daughter on the streets fighting crime in your image?

Certain characters who are truly iconic have been badly written enough to basically be useless. Bane for example, has had more up's and down's then Lindsey Lohan during Spring Break. I hope it works for them long term.

These days I only getting into Vertigo and Image titles. One of the titles I'm hooked on is Saga. Just has this Science Fiction/Fantasy feel to it and I'm liking what I'm seeing.

This is an unusual spawn from this discussion but is anyone else wanting to discuss the long term ramifications of Marvel Now post AvX compared to New 52?

Similar goals, different approaches, and arguable same amount of emotional investment.