So I really enjoyed being in the girl scouts in elementary school, and would like something similar for my son. Unfortunately, the boy scouts, with their non-inclusive policies are not a group I'm comfortable supporting, even if the local chapter ignores these policies. Are their good alternatives out there?

i was in campfire as a kid - it's open to all kids (not separated by gender - although in practice, it was mostly girls). it was pretty fun, we learned skills and earned badges and had adventures in nature.

Thanks Kathryn. I think a large part of my concern is explaining to my son why we think he shouldn't be a part of the boy scouts, but Campfire does seem like a great alternative.

Are all of your son's friends going to be joining the BSA? Maybe you can convince their parents Camp Fire is a better alternative. I'm also pretty bummed BSA has become what it has (or at least we've become aware of its exclusionary ideas), since it was such a huge part of my childhood growing up in NY. I'm thinking about Girl Scouts for my daughter...they're still ok as a group, right?

Have you seen DIY.org? It's an attempt to remake the scouts, as far as I understand it. diy.org

I saw DIY a few months back and really liked what I thought it was saying...but I'm still a bit unclear as to what it actually is. I thought it was just a list of things your kid could do and then share with the community, not a local/community organization you'd have regular real-life meetups with...

Hey, Eagle Scout here, just wanted to chime in.

During my Eagle Review Board (sort of the last step before you receive it), one of my reviewers asked, "Do you believe in God?". It was the first time anyone had ever asked me that question in Scouting. I said, "No." I got my notice that I had passed my board a few weeks later.

Currently, the national Scouting organization is hamstrung because it receives most of its funding from Mormon donors (estimates are between 15-20%). This is the real reason the national organization isn't backing down on this gay/atheist nonsense.

I can honestly say that questions of religion or sexuality never came up during the six years I was a Scout (10 if you count Cub Scouting), it simply isn't an issue.

Scouting was honestly one of the best experiences of my childhood, and I don't think anything really compares. With hundreds of camps and sub-organizations (Order of the Arrow, etc), and the actual prestige of the Eagle award, pretty much anything else just isn't the same.

I'd encourage you to go to a local Scout troop meeting (even if it's without your son) just to see what it's like, so you at least have something to compare it to while considering alternatives.

The reality is that Scouting will never change if good people like you keep taking their kids out of Scouting. In fact, it would probably have the opposite effect because more and more of Scouting's funding becomes religious-affiliated.

To answer a few previous questions.

- Scouting seems fairly prevalent in my area.
- The Girl Scouts are an entirely separate organization and are very inclusive. I have no qualms with the girl scouts.

What chance then do your average members have of affecting change then, if policies are so donation driven? I don't really worry all that much about the views of the local troop, but I'm concerned my little son may not grasp the nuances of the local troop not following the national organizations rules.

The fact that they even ask if you believe in god is something that makes me rather uncomfortable to be honest. I don't think that's something that should be any of the scout's business.

Ben - is there a social aspect to DIY? Looking at the site it looks like it's all web based.

I think the chances are pretty good. My home Council, Northern Lights (basically the regional unit of Boy Scouts, roughly the size of 1/4 of the state) in Minnesota recently 'came out' publicly in opposition of the national policy. I don't think that the Boy Scout's exclusionary policies can last forever.

I don't blame them for asking me about my religious beliefs during my Eagle Board of Review. The last point of the Scout Law is "Reverent", so I thought it was fine to ask. It never came up at any other point, even though I never went to Sunday church during summer camp. It's not like someone's asking you "Son, are you gay or atheist?" when you join up. That's my point - literally these issues *never* came up when I was a Scout.

You may not blame them for asking about your religious beliefs, but the fact that they have "reverent" as a scout law is a problem for me.

You may want to work on changing the boy scouts, and that may be a good topic for another branch, but I don't see why I'd want to work on changing an organization that's already so clearly committed to it's exclusionary policies, when it seems like there are alternatives out there.

Sure, social feature is the fundamental feature of diy.org since it is an online community to share boys' projects with others.

I'm not sure I'd consider that truly social.

I must concur with the earlier sentiment that "Scouting was honestly one of the best experiences of my childhood."

Hands-down, scouting helped shape the man I am today. I was a boy scout until I aged out at 18. One merit badge and a service project away from Eagle.

While I am sincerely saddened that BSA takes an anti-gay stance, in light of all the good the organization does in the lives of so many boys, I still look forward to the day that — should I have a son — I can enroll my boy in scouts.

Apologies all who requested to join - I think notifications are a bit buggy still.

It saddens me because I grew up in the Scouts and they were a huge part of my life as a young man.

Today, as a father of a boy, I have very conflicting feelings about the organization. At the leadership level I completely disagree with their standing on a lot of things and that scares me. But, I know at the individual troop level there are still great people doing great things.

I have yet to find another organization that provides boys with what the Scouts could give them. I'm glad this thread exists. Thank you for including me as part of it.

As an Eagle Scout, I cannot imagine the person I'd be without what I learned in the Boy Scouts. Leadership, the love of the outdoors, honesty and other traits and activities have made me a better person.

On the other hand, I too do not agree with a lot of the Boy Scouts stances and I think as the world becomes more tolerant, they will begin to shift their views.

That said, and to answer your question, there were two organizations that I often ran into during my Boy Scout days - Venture Scouts and the Explorer Program. They both offered similar experiences, but were more integrated, including allowing both sexes to join.

Like a couple of others here, the Scouts definitely taught me real skills and help shaped me into an independent man.

My troop was NOT religious. Yes, we memorized and recited the Scout Law. We sang the camp fire songs, but I'm not sure that we ever prayed as a group. God, religion never seemed to be a topic. It was about camping, merit badges, lighting a camp fire with only one match, and just having fun.

My point is, please go to a Scout meeting and see for yourself how this particular troop will be. Talk to the Scout master yourself. It's the only way you'd really know if this troop is for you and your son.

Solburn, I don't believe you read my original post. A lot of people have mentioned that their individual troops made no mention of the national organization's intolerance of non-religious people or gays. However, as previously stated, I'm not comfortable with my son being a member of an organization that is so vehemently intolerant, even if the local chapter is not.

Sarah, I did miss that. I'm sorry.

Have you considered maybe something like Junior Achievement [ja.org or a local YMCA [ymca.net

Here's the YMCA link that will work... ymca.net

Sara, I think in the case of Scouting it is very possible — even desirable — to separate the part from the whole. Try to evaluate the value of the troop separate from your feelings about the national organization's stance on key issues. Allowing a kid to join a local troop is not, in my eyes, equivalent to casting a vote in support of the policies of the national organization.

The takeaway I glean from the comments above is that the experiences we all had in Scouts/Scouting had very little to do with the policies, politics, and values espoused at the national level and everything to do with the values presented by the leaders, parents, and fellow Scouts involved at the troop level.

While it is unfortunate that the policies set at the national level force each and every parent to evaluate this question for themselves, perhaps that evaluation process if not such a bad thing.

If I ever have a son, I'll let him join, but I will use it as a teaching moment to highlight where our family's values differ from those of the national organization.

Ken, in my eyes, allowing my son to join the boyscouts is on par with teaching him it's okay to bash gays, and discriminate against atheists. I don't think you can separate the national level from the individual troops.

I would be open to the boy scouts if they did change their official stance to be more inclusive. Are any of you working on efforts / aware of efforts to change the national policy?

I've been involved with the Boy Scouts for a very long time, both as a Scout (youth) and Scouter (adult). It is surprising to most non-Scouter how rarely the above mentioned issues come up in day-to-day operations.

I agree with others on here that it would be tough to find a program that would match the benefit the BSA program has on youth. If you look at the opinions expressed by Scouter on both sides of the issue, it is hard to believe that the organization is systematically removing people of an opposing few.

However, I would not agree with any actions to create local contradictory policies.

Christopher, are you suggesting we should simply ignore the Scouts hateful policies because they don't come up in day to day activities? Or that scout members have not been removed because of either their religious beliefs or sexual orientation? Because that's simply not true.

Did you have some suggestions for enacting positive change in the boyscouts? Or are you okay with the status quo?

Though this risks derailing this conversation (because no one's opinion was ever changed by an argument on the Internet), I'd like to suggest we 'ignore' a lot of these kinds of issues every day.

Dislike union busting but drink Coke? Support worker's rights and environmentalism but buy Apple?

I'd like to suggest you weigh the positives and negatives of Scouting rather than take an absolutist stance here. We don't always agree 100% with companies whose products we consume or the organizations we affiliate ourselves with.

Additionally, I think it's clear this policy will not remain in effect for long, and probably will not last until your son is able to join Scouting proper (I think the age is 10 nowadays?).

Even Mitt Romney, a former executive board member of Scouting USA (and, significant to what I mentioned earlier, Mormon), has stated that he feels "that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation." Boston's Minuteman Council has opposed the policy since 2001 and has not been interfered with by the national council.

Sorry, my point may have come across mutled.

Having been involved in the program for over 18 years in many different capacities, the topics of specific personal religious beliefs and sexuality rarely, if ever, come up.

Many cases I have heard of regarding removal was an activist pushing an agenda or provoked by other, more grievous, issues.

My experience is that the people involved with the Boy Scouts, just like the rest of the public, have many differing views.

The positive impact the program has, I believe, is not matched anywhere else. Any difference in opinion you have with national policy provides a teaching moment, not only on the topic you differ in opinion, but that difference in opinion is healthy and expected.

An organization is only as tolerant/ignorant as the people who make it up. Don't run away from it, join it and be an example to others.

I am an Eagle Scout and felt that I almost got more from scouting than I did from High School. Self-reliance, public speaking, delayed gratification, basic survival skills, planning and organization--these are all things that everyone should learn in their youth. If you want to protect your access to these types of experiences, stake your claim!

I am closing this branch as it has gotten off topic.